Magine: ok....everyone aboard who's coming aboard? :)
Magine: purdy, got your java? :)
ommm: i'm aboard -- if i don't reboot ;-)
Purdy1: got it :)
Magine: btw, there are some storms moving thru in my area, so if i suddenly disappear, you'll know what happened...
Purdy1: hehe ok :)
Magine: ok, let's go....
Magine: any questions from last time?
Purdy1: hmm.. not yet :)
Magine: ok...
Magine: did omm just disappear?
Purdy1: a bird came in and poofed again
Purdy1: back again
Wolverine: sorry I wasn't loading, so I had to poof a few times
Magine: i see...
Purdy1: hehe Hi Wolverine
Wolverine: hello
Magine: ok, let's see, what haven't i covered? :)
Magine: prototypes...
Purdy1: uh huh.. I treied disecting a file.. didn't work
Magine: purdy...dissecting?
Purdy1: just using part of an existing file
Magine: what part? :)
Purdy1: a sphere part.. put in modelbegin, prototype begin.. blah, blah.. file stuff.. took out clump stuff then model end
Purdy1: I must sound hilarious!
Magine: well, a prototype is just a definition, you still need a clump
Purdy1: ok, thats where I went wrong.. thought a clump would *join* the sphere to the parts I took it from
Magine: ok...well to start at the beginning :)  ...a prototype is the definition of a part of a model
Purdy1: like sphere, cube, etc.?
Magine: you place prototype definitions at the beginning of the model, after "modelbegin" but before the first clump
Magine: you start with "protobegin"
Magine: then add the usual commands, like vertex, polygon, color...whatever
Magine: then you end the prototype with "protoend"
Magine: oops, i forgot one thing :)
Purdy1: :)
Magine: you give it a name...."protobegin <name>"
ommm: ok
Purdy1: name= example?
Magine: after that, you begin the rest of the model, with the first "clumpbegin"
Magine: and whereever you want the prototype object to appear, you insert the command "protoinstance <name>"  (where <name> is whatever you named the prototype, of course)
ommm: yes
Magine: (i'm looking to see which page of the examples uses prototypes)
Magine: anyway, you can have as many prototypes as you need in a model
ommm: tube5 uses protos
Purdy1: url please Magine :)
Magine: ok, i see...on page 5...www.pipeline.com/~magine/rwx_examples5.htm
Magine: page down to rw-tube5.rwx
ommm: the pipe on pipeline ;-)
Magine: yep :)
Magine: have you taken a look at these pages, btw?
ommm: yes
Sportster: yes
Purdy1: yes :)
Magine: ok, good :) did they make sense though? :D
ommm: very kewl -- but did you plan it all out ahead of time?
Sportster: make sense...just wish I could see them !!  LOL
Magine: plan what? this class? :D
Magine: sportster :(
Magine: the rw-tube is right over there....
ommm: no i mean the procedure for making the tube....
Mondo: yes, me too
ommm: did you know the steps of technique before beginning the first model?
Sportster: :)
Magine: yes, in the case of the tube
ommm: it's just soooo neat and complicated...
Purdy1: is the space required  inbetween the modbegin, protobegin, etc?
Magine: no the space is optional :)
Purdy1: k, and the addhint does what again>
Purdy1: ?
ommm: would it be possible to make the same tube in any modeler?
Purdy1: or does rwxmod put that in?
ommm: i mean with the open inside?
Magine: ommm, you would have to make sure that it had < 64 vertices and polys, ommm
ommm: that's tough with 3DStudio MAX!!!
Magine: purdy, i'll talk about the addhint command next....
Sportster: :)
Purdy1: yes, I understand ts is better for lower verts
Magine: the point about the tube example on the web page is....
Purdy1: proto's :)
Magine: the previous model (rw-tube4) is just a single section, to add additional sections to make the whole pipe,  i used prototypes
Mondo: 3ds has optimize feature, for editing the # of vertices........
Purdy1: hence the name *section*
Purdy1: thanks Mondo :)
Magine: i made the single section into a prototype, then called "protoinstance" several times, rotating each time, to make the whole pipe
ommm: neat!
Magine: unfortunately rwxmod doesn't save prototypes, it converts them to actual multiple copies
Purdy1: in the file, it looks like you rotated the same section the same way
Magine: purdy, the rotate command is cumulative, unless you use transformbegin...end to isolate it :)
Magine: in other words, each time you use the rotate command, *everything* following it will be rotated that much
Purdy1: k, so how does it make diff angles if it is the same proto rotated the same way?
Magine: so the first time i call protoinstance, the section is unrotated, the 2nd time it's rotated 22.5 degrees, the third time 45 degrees, etc
Purdy1: duh.. cause it is rotated that much each time! *blush*
Purdy1: LOL
Purdy1: too simple!
Magine: it's not rotated the same way each time, right...each rotate command *adds* that much rotation
Purdy1: right :)
Purdy1: culmulative :)
Magine: right :)
Purdy1: *I love it when something clicks!*
Magine: anyway, since rwxmod turns each instance of a prototype into an actual copy, you should make whatever changes you want with rwxmod before doing the prototype thing :)
Purdy1: save lots huh?!
Sportster: got it...
Magine: in other words, if you opened rw-tube5.rwx in rwxmod and saved it, the new file would have 4 times as many verts & polys....
Magine: purdy, you asked me about addhints...
Purdy1: yes, I can't remeber what it does
Purdy1: *taking lots of notes today*
Magine: "addhint" just helps rw to draw the model properly...
Magine: possible hints are "editable", "hs" and "container"
Magine: "hs" tells rw that the model has hidden surfaces
Purdy1: hs and container?
Purdy1: great!
Magine: "container" tells rw that the model will have other models inside it
Magine: and "editable" means that it's ok for rw to adjust the model once it's in memory, which sometimes helps it to appear correctly
Magine: those are all used with addhint, btw
Magine: like "addhint editable" or "addhint container" etc
Magine: i've found that the hints are kind of hit and miss :) sometimes they have the desired effect, sometimes not
Purdy1: thats great! I have never seen a file with hs or container and I've opened 100's
Magine: well, i made a huge sphere for atuin, that we use as a planet, with things inside it :)
Sportster: so, you would recommend "addhint Editable to improve appearance ?
Magine: logically, "addhint container" would have made sense for the planet....but in practice, "addhint hs" worked better...dunno why
ommm: how did it work better? what happened with "container"?
Magine: usually try addhint editable as a first try, but only if the model doesn't appear properly
Magine: ommm, with container, you could still see objects inside the globe
ommm: oh
Sportster: ok :)
Magine: i was just reading today, that addhint editable has a drawback, that it forces something called "z-buffering"
Purdy1: and that does?
Sportster: aah I KNOW THAT !!!  LOL
ommm: reading..in Ferraro book?
Magine: it's something to avoid, because it's a slower way of rendering things that rw only does as a last resort
Purdy1: so don't use addhint unless it doesn't look right?
Magine: if a models intersect each other it requires z-buffering too
Magine: purdy, right
Purdy1: ok :)
Sportster: has to do with overlap and confusion on which object to render..causes blurry objecys?
Mondo: Z-buffering is related to ray tracing, I think..........
Magine: lots of models intersecting each other in an area will slow things down, because they have to be rendered with z-buffering
Sportster: objects even
Purdy1: in an area or in a file?
Magine: i can't give you the details on what z-buffering is, exactly, cuz i haven't studied the programming aspect of rw
Magine: either, i suppose, purdy
Purdy1: ok
Magine: ...but if you're concerned with performance, you want to avoid it :)
Purdy1: that is why ppl suggest to build with the ground pieces up .4 or so from the ground
Sportster: :)
Mondo: Z buffer = An area in graphics memory reserved for storing the Z-axis value of each pixel.
Magine: on the other hand, it's not like it will lock up your computer if you have a few models with addhint editable, so....
Magine: thanks, mondo...you have the book, huh? :)
Mondo: nope, no book
Magine: where'd you find that info?
Mondo: stole that off the internet dictionary
Purdy1: :)
Purdy1: got the url Mondo?
Magine: ok...now can you tell us what the significance of that definition is? :D
Mondo: http://webopedia.internet.com/
ommm: uh-oh
Mondo: ha
Magine: uh oh what, ommm?
Purdy1: sounds like alot of memory burned on reading the depth of the model
Sportster: thanks Mondo
ommm: significance? duuuuhhhhh....
Magine: well i don't know either, so that's ok, lol
ommm: lol
Mondo: the rendering engine is much faster, requiring no retrival from memory, to produce a rendered surface to look at
Purdy1: every pixel on the z axis? thats alot of pixels
ommm: gotcha
Mondo: right, a lot of pixels, a lot of memory
ommm: ok
Magine: "that is not within the scope of this discussion" LOL
ommm: yayyyy
Purdy1: hehe
Mondo: like, writing a program directly to the video buffer, much faster
Magine: and you don't need to know, to make models :P
ommm: gud
Mondo: quite right, Magine
Sportster: hehehehe
Carre: :), keep it simple
Magine: next...multiple clumps....
Sportster: that would be me....simple  :)))
Magine: (yow, lightning flash here)
Sportster: woof !!!
Purdy1: cool! I love electrical storms!
ommm: boom
ommm: watch for reboot...
Sportster: me too Purdy...but not in front of the PC :))
Magine: my puter doesn't like them tho.....but i do have a fancy surge protector
Purdy1: true enough Sports :)
ommm: shields up!
Sportster: I have a manual  SP.."Yank The Plug" Brand :))
Magine: as you probably know, a model can have multiple clumps
ommm: -)
Purdy1: k, multiple clumps.. for avs??
Magine: any model, but they are mostly useful when parts of a model (like arms and legs on an av) need to be rotated individually
Purdy1: egads.. sounds so complicated! LOL
Purdy1: I think I would get lost rotating each part!
Magine: i added an example (www.pipeline.com/~magine/rwx_examples6.htm) from the renderware CD, showing the use of multiple clumps for a robot arm
Purdy1: I would love to see an av file completely labled! :))
Magine: it also shows the use of prototypes....
Mondo: surge protector = two thyristors, 20 cents each, hehe
Magine: purdy, you have to go thru  and use the color command to find each part, heheh
Purdy1: thyrristors?
Magine: (mondo, it's actually a UPS)
Sportster: wow !!!!
Mondo: very good, Magine, very professional
Mondo: (big delco batteries, hehe)
Purdy1: yes, I have retextured 2 avs, but I get so dang bored and frustrated! LOL
Purdy1: save, rwxmod, save, rwxmod...
Sportster: because of the repetition Purdy ?
Magine: i can try and put one on an example page, purdy...i have a few avs already figured out :)
Purdy1: no, not knowing what part I am looking at! hehe
ommm: more avs, more avs
Sportster: great...
Purdy1: that would be so cool! everytime I go into one, I lable more and more
Purdy1: label too :)
Magine: other than for avs, i'm frankly not sure that multiple clumps have a great advantage...
Magine: but i could be wrong :)
Purdy1: is Wolverine still here?
Mondo: he BRB
Purdy1: k
Magine: there is one thing they can be good for though...
Purdy1: I wonder if he has used them?
Magine: (sportster, where you waving your hand with a question?)
Purdy1: LOL
Sportster: LOOL...noppers hit WAVE by accident and it got stuck up there LOL
Carre: lol
Magine: remember that models with more than 64 verts or polys will act like a solid block
Purdy1: right
Sportster: rheymetisn settin in :)))
Magine: a way to get around that is, actually it's only the number of verts & polys in the MAIN clump that count
Purdy1: so clumps make for less verts?
ommm: oh
Purdy1: main clump?
Magine: the first clump, not the clumps inside of it
Purdy1: wow
Purdy1: thats cool :)
Sportster: Main=original?
Purdy1: before rwxmod?
Purdy1: hehe
Magine: main=the first clump in the model
Sportster: :)
Magine: like:
Magine: modelbegin
Magine: clumpbegin
Magine: # this is the first clump, main clump
Magine: clumpbegin
Magine: # this is an inner clump, 2nd in the heirarchy
Magine: clumpend
Magine: clumpend
Magine: modelend
Magine: ...like that :)
Purdy1: cool :) wondered about heirarchy
ommm: clump,clump,clump!
Magine: only the main clump is solid at all
ommm: can you pack em in on the other clumps?
Magine: so if you have an object with a lot of verts & polys,
Purdy1: redid the cupboard with textures and it did some weird thing.. had to re- edit or something
Magine: try to put only the stuff that needs to be solid in the main clump and keep it < 64 verts/polys
Magine: then put the other verts/polys in the other clumps...
ommm: alright
Purdy1: great! god tip!
Purdy1: good even
Sportster: :)
ommm: very
Magine: i had the idea of making an invisible, but solid, main clump, with only the framework of the object in it
Magine: then the details in the other clumps
Purdy1: thats great!
Mondo: argh , server lock on doc, going out and back, BRB
Magine: however i did discover a catch the other day, regarding invisible models (opacity 0)
ommm: catch?
Magine: theoretically, opacity 0 should be totally invisible
ommm: it isn't?
Magine: but i've found that with MMX active, opacity 0 still shows up
ommm: argh
Purdy1: hey, wonder if thats how gand does some things?
Magine: gand?
Purdy1: yeah, mmx makes things dark
Sportster: as transparent Magine?
Magine: yes
Purdy1: he made a dungeon as a world floor
ommm: seen that dungeon
Magine: for instance we have this gnarly old tree in atuin :) but i has too many verts/ polys, so you can't walk under the tree's branches
Purdy1: like seeray's willow
Purdy1: need solid off
Magine: i tried to repair that by moving all the verts/polys into a second clump, and building an invisible framework for the main clump, with less than 64 verts/polys
Purdy1: right
ommm: wurk?
Magine: but the "invisible" frameworks shows as a shadow sticking out in places....if you are using MMX
Purdy1: wouldn't a color value of 0 work with mmx?
Magine: color 0 0 0 is black
Purdy1: oops
ommm: 000ps
Purdy1: LOL
Magine: opacity 0 *ought* to be invisible, completely
Magine: a glitch in the renderware driver for mmx, i guess
Purdy1: obviously I don't do much with colors :)
Magine: we also used the same trick for the rope bridges here in awu...
Magine: the planks and rope have too many verts/polys, so the rope bridges have an invisible walk inside them :P
Magine: another catch is...only the main clump of a model will respond to "create animate" commands here
Purdy1: thay are really cool Magine :) I put them in Lothlori :)
Purdy1: hmm, thats interesting!
Magine: :) mavrik did all the work on those bridges, i just got him started by telling him about prototypes
Purdy1: :)
Magine: let's see, what is the rope bridge name again?
Purdy1: rbridge1?
ommm: neat!
Magine: heheh, yeah, i can see the invisible walk, with mmx on...oh well, it looks like a shadow under the bridge :)
Magine: ...however if you try to animate the bridge....
ommm: can't see it here
Purdy1: I retextured it ;)
Magine: ...it won't let itself be "animated".....
Magine: purdy, i'll have to come see that :)
Purdy1: because the main clump is invisible?
Purdy1: :)
Purdy1: oops, the floor is invisible right?
Magine: i had expected that the invisible walk would respond to the "Create animate" because it's in the main clump
Magine: but not even that takes the "create animate" i suppose because it is technically invisible...
Magine: well, with some of the time we have left, i wanted to talk about some special techniques....
ommm: k
Purdy1: cool :)
Sportster: :))0
Magine: i already told you about the tube last week....using discs to generate vertices; prototypes; and using rwxmod's "clean vertices" to weld them together :)
Magine: now this spikey ball thing, is just and example of how you can make things by grabbing vertices and moving them around
Mondo: back
Purdy1: thats about all I could do in ts! LOL
Sportster: wb
Magine: you can see the spikey ball on the example page..
ommm: looks familiar ;-)
Magine: page 3...
Magine: it looks familiar???
ommm: just kiddn -- TS..
Magine: ohhh
Purdy1: hehe
Magine: now this white pillar thingie here is another example of manipulating vertices...
ommm: how 2 do it?
Magine: the spikey ball, btw, for people reading the log, is rw-ball3.rwx
Magine: the pillar is rw-skew3.rwx
Sportster: yuppa
Mondo: (looking deeply at the vertices)
Magine: anyway, this pillar is pretty boring itself, but it shows how you can stretch and bend things by using transformbegin...end on just some vertices in a model
Purdy1: wow! great explanation of the transform on the page!
Mondo: ouch
Magine: i started with a cylinder, then moved just the verts belonging to the top of it, to give it a "skew"
Mondo: it knocked me down
Magine: the trick is in sorting the vertices and polys
Sportster: sorting Magine??
ommm: explain!
Magine: just a sec, trying to see what web page it's on :)
Sportster: got it....
Magine: ok, page 4: www.pipeline.com/~magine/rwx_examples4.htm
Magine: i need to add some more illustrations to that example page :)
Magine: but basically, the idea is to use a spreadsheet program to sort vertices and polys
ommm: excel?
Magine: excel is what i used, yes
Magine: you can't just sort vertices without also changing the numbers used in the poylgon commands...
Mondo: I understand, adding factor to all vertices,
Magine: so, you create a table of old and new vertex numbers
Magine: you just add two numbered columns next to the vertex commands
Magine: then sort the vertices and the first column, while leaving the 2nd column as consecutive numbers
Magine: after the sort, the two columns become your table
Magine: then you use that table to create a function (vlookup) to convert the numbers in the quad/triangle/polygon commands
Magine: then, finally, you can sort the polygon commands, so that the first polygons end up at the top of the model (in this example) and the last polygons end up at the bottom....
ommm: screenshots, screenshots! they shouted...
Magine: example page, example page, she retorted :P
ommm: lol
Magine: http://www.pipeline.com/~magine/rwx_examples4.htm
Carre: lol
Magine: i do need to add a few more screenshots to complete that page, i admit...but you can probably get the idea from what's there now
ommm: just one excel sample, por favor?
Magine: anyway, you can also sort polys from front to back, left to right, or however you want, with the same method
Magine: ommm, did you look at the web page? :)
ommm: oh, it didn't load right, i'm trying re-load...
ommm: oh, yes!!!
Magine: there ya go :)
ommm: i see it now! TANKS!!
ommm: u r always steps ahead...
Magine: welll, folks....i think that about wraps it up.  questions, about anything to do with rwx? :)
Purdy1: what do you suggest the color should be if a texture is applied?
Magine: color is completely irrelevant if texture is applied.....
Magine: texture replaces the color entirely
ommm: can you leave out the color entirely?
Magine: the surface/ambient/diffuse/specular commands all work on texture though....yes, you can leave color command out
Purdy1: right.. ditto ommm
Magine: you can leave the color command out even without texture, if you like basic black ;)
Purdy1: :)
ommm: ok
Magine: and don't forget texturemode foreshortened to keep your texture from wiggling :)
Sportster: Thanks Magine!! Terrific job...really !!!!!!
Purdy1: is there a certain # you use for most objects.. with the surface/ambient/diffuse?
Magine: a certain number?
Magine: it depends on the kind of surface you want for the object
Purdy1: like .3 .7 .4
Purdy1: ok :) I will play with it.
Magine: i usually start with surface .5 .5 0 for most things.....
Purdy1: great :)
Magine: oh, yes....
ommm: warm heart embrace, Magine, thank you so much
Sportster: (applause  applause  applause)
Magine: we're going to have a model making contest for the class...
Purdy1: haha!!
ommm: clap,clap
Magine: create a model to use in one of the rwx dept. theme areas
Magine: i'll send out the details
Purdy1: hmm.. theme?
Purdy1: ok :)
ommm: great class!
ommm: ok, will try
Carre: I have a request
Mondo: larger than a bread box?
Magine: yes, we have several sky dome areas, forest, airy and toontown :)
Magine: whatever you want, mondo....
Sportster: yes!!!!!!
Magine: the winner will be displayed in the rwx area near GZ here in awu
Purdy1: Thanks ALOT Magine :o) I have really learned a great deal. I was able to redo a building piece yesterday :)
Magine: great :)
ommm: can you give us coords for the theme of the model?
Magine: if you have any questions, feel free to email me.........yes, i'll email the coords, ommm, i dont have them handy right here....
...
Magine: you are all welcome, thanks for attending, it was fun :)
...
Magine: go forth and make models ;)

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